Debateful

Full Version: John Kerry at University of Florida
You're currently viewing a stripped down version of our content. View the full version with proper formatting.

Route 66 Rambler Wrote:
What kind of country uses violence to silence those using freedom of speech? Dictatorships such as Saddam ruled Iraq? Hitler ruled Nazi Germany? Soviet Russia? America? Yes, yes, yes and yes. So, at what point did America decide to become a hypocritical country? Because didn't they invade Iraq to remove Saddam because of his violence against people, so why do American's allow it to happen in their own country? So, it means they're either afraid, hypocritical or stupid - or maybe all three. A student stood up during a campaign with John Kerry and made a statement about the black people votes in Florida being ignored and the discovery of voting machines which counted backwards, and then went on to ask why Kerry stood by and let it happen? What was Kerry's answer? Set the police on him, letting them tazer him for continuing to exercise free speech.


I'm not sure if you read the other posts, but clearly you have no idea that there are restrictions to the freedom of speech act. If you want to really have 100% freedom on speech, you can go to one of those free speech zones. For all you who still don't really know the real meaning of freedom, look it up before you talk: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech</a><!-- m --> .
Next, I would like to point out that you are posting the same thing others have posted over and over again. Obviously, as you could see from the other posts, the man is resisting arrest. One might ask, “Why arrest him in the first place?” The whole point of John Kerry coming was so he can give a speech and answer questions. What should we do when a guy asks questions, but doesn’t let the guest of honor answer? What happens when a guy starts to take control of the thing? Some things you can’t have freedom over are defamation, obscenity, hate speech, and many more (list on wiki). I mean, UK has freedom of speech too, but they have different restrictions like denying the holocaust. Picture it this way. You are giving a speech to your class on abortion. Some pro lifer comes up and starts asking you questions, but doesn’t let you speak. He stands up and starts putting more fury into his words. Your teacher tells him to sit down, but he still starts shouting at you. You want to answer the question and tell your teacher to let you answer the question. The kid doesn’t stop. Obviously, what is the teacher going to do? She isn’t going to let him go on like that. Same way, compare it here. The guy was clearly going out of control. So, to all of you out there, tell me, what would you guys do? Let him ramble on for 5-6 minutes in that tone? Let him go one on one with Mr. Kerry? Everyone knows, the rule is, you ask one question, president answers. You let another person ask a question, and if you have another question you answer again. If you don’t use proper etiquette and follow the rules, don’t expect the same in return.

Your scenario involves a classroom setting, with underage children being led by an adult teacher. Children are limited in the amounts of rights they have, since they are underage, the need for education, etc. But here's a little news: we aren't children. We are American citizens with full rights as such, with the freedom to express our minds without fear of harm or reprisal. This is our full right, whether we deny the Holocaust, which is a right denied to many other citizens of less-free countries, or if we protest and demonstrate against a administration that takes our rights away one by one. Hitler was elected democratically, and when he first came into power, he didn't start throwing Jews into ovens the next day. He limited their rights to have a business, to walk on the street, to work for the government, then forced to wear Stars of David, over a lengthy period of time. When do we resist? When WE are being executed, or sent to foreign prisons where American law does not rule? Do we draw a line in the sand and tell our representative government not to cross and violate our personal liberties, and as the government and their police cross over it, we back off and draw another one? And one after that? And another after that? When does it stop? When do people say, "[censored] this, I'm not having the government dictate what I can and cannot say"? When we have a M-16 pointed at our heads, or behind barbed wire? Too [censored] late, you're in [censored] prison or [censored] six feet under! I'm sorry to curse, but as a Constitutionalist, I'm sick and God-damn tired of the government trying to protect me from myself, or telling me what to do, or what to say. I'm not the one going in the ditch for saying what I believe in: that man has been given certain, unalienable rights, that amoung these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. And anyone that says otherwise is not just a traitor to their country, but a quisling to the basic fundamentals of human freedom and prosperity.

ireland88 Wrote:
Your scenario involves a classroom setting, with underage children being led by an adult teacher. Children are limited in the amounts of rights they have, since they are underage, the need for education, etc. But here's a little news: we aren't children. We are American citizens with full rights as such, with the freedom to express our minds without fear of harm or reprisal. This is our full right, whether we deny the Holocaust, which is a right denied to many other citizens of less-free countries, or if we protest and demonstrate against a administration that takes our rights away one by one. Hitler was elected democratically, and when he first came into power, he didn't start throwing Jews into ovens the next day. He limited their rights to have a business, to walk on the street, to work for the government, then forced to wear Stars of David, over a lengthy period of time. When do we resist? When WE are being executed, or sent to foreign prisons where American law does not rule? Do we draw a line in the sand and tell our representative government not to cross and violate our personal liberties, and as the government and their police cross over it, we back off and draw another one? And one after that? And another after that? When does it stop? When do people say, "[censored] this, I'm not having the government dictate what I can and cannot say"? When we have a M-16 pointed at our heads, or behind barbed wire? Too [censored] late, you're in [censored] prison or [censored] six feet under! I'm sorry to curse, but as a Constitutionalist, I'm sick and God-damn tired of the government trying to protect me from myself, or telling me what to do, or what to say. I'm not the one going in the ditch for saying what I believe in: that man has been given certain, unalienable rights, that amoung these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. And anyone that says otherwise is not just a traitor to their country, but a quisling to the basic fundamentals of human freedom and prosperity.


Mr. Ireland, you must understand, a country can not be 100% free. If you are thinking that there are such things in this world, you are totally wrong. In fact, if we did have 100% freedom of speech, this country would be very very very chaotic. That means, I could easily go up to a certain race and say a racial comment and not get in trouble. That means at Mr. Bush’s next speech, a bunch of people against him could scream and not even allow the man to talk. Don’t underestimate the power of speech. The problem with a lot of Americans is that they do not understand the real power of freedom. People like you, Ireland, get candy, but ask for more. Don’t be greedy and remember that too much candy can give you a stomach ache. I’m sure you heard of the “shouting fire in a movie theater” one. Or slander or anything that could lead to violence. Maybe you haven’t experienced them or thought of what would happen if you had these rights. Maybe you would think differently if somebody puts news that you have cheated on your wife and puts it in the newspapers even though you didn’t. And just to let you know, there will never be a dictatorship like Hitler in America since first of all it is a federalist government and 2nd of all because of the separation of powers. Do me a favor and ask any immigrant whether he is happy with the freedoms America grants him. And yes, everybody does have the right to the “pursuit of happiness” but he does not have the right to find the “pursuit of happiness” by interfering in a inappropriate way with another man’s “pursuit of happiness”.

This kid at the university deserved to be tasered. Hell, in another country you could probably get killed for doing something like that. This kid was lucky. He said certain words that was “disturbing the peace” of the room. It’s not some stupid free speech zone. He asks couple of stupid questions while insulting Mr. Kerry, and then doesn’t let him answer. Police stay there for a while, still letting him go with his rambling stupid speech for more than 1 and a half minutes. Do you know how long it is to ask a 90 second question? Obviously it wasn’t a question and you aren’t going to let the person keep going on. Then lets, continue. They start to shoo the guy out because obviously it wasn’t relevant to anything there and he was taking too much time and disrupting the “peace”. So they start pushing him out of the place. There are 3 cops pushing him out. Then, he turns to the right, and attempts to jump over some stuff, trying to run back to the place. Obviously, that was suspicious behavior. So they tell him he’s under arrest. But he keeps struggling even on the floor. Resisting arrest is a felony everybody. The kid’s lucky he doesn’t get a bigger sentence than 1 day in jail. So, some people might say that it is using excessive force. Well, if a guy is struggling, you can’t really put handcuffs on him. So what do we do? Usually a police would beat the guy with the baton a few times, but thanks to modern technology, we have a less violent method: The taser. So they taser the guy. End of story. Lucky this kid wasn’t in another country. I mean, if you even look at cops over there the wrong way, they’ll just arrest you, beat the [censored] out of you, and put you in a jail. You won’t be able to go to a judge or anything. We’re lucky we’re in a country that is like this. If you think that this is too strict, too bad. No country in the world will allow little pansy boys to run around playing fun. The real world is a strict world. There are rules and regulations to follow, and if you don’t follow, you will have to pay the consequences.

Welcome to the real world.

You're all a bunch of stupid [censored] that have no idea what you are talking about. A bunch of staggering, idiotic retards that have no sense of debate. I'm better, smarter, and tougher than everyone in this whole damn conversation. Go [censored] yourselves.






Shocked and a bit pissed? That's my freedom of speech.

Want to ban me? Yell back at me? Perhaps even, if you had it and this was in person, tase me? Go ahead, I deserved it after all I said. Now suppose you're John Kerry, this is your campaign, you want people to believe in you. Now I'm the [censored] that comes up and starts spreading rumors about you being in a shady organization like Skull & Bones. You aren't exactly going to invite me to have some coffee, now are ya?

You don't understand the concept of speech, for one. More particularly, Ireland88. If everyone was allowed to say whatever they wanted to say, this would lead to numerous arguments and eventually fights. You legalize everyone to say, "YOU DUMB HONKEY [censored]!" Or some other obscenities, you're going to have at least 1,000 hate crimes an hour. Yeah, he has the right to stand up and say his two cents, but not in the way that he did it. He purposely wanted to start a fight, purposely wanted his fifteen minutes of fame and even egged the police on. Like someone else stated in this topic, he got tased because he was resisting arrest.

This isn't an attack on the freedom of speech, and it isn't signs of some oppressive government. You know what this is? Another cop doing his job, and another dumb fuckin' college kid who thinks he some badass. He's an amateur journalist, what do you expect?
You think we can't have freedom of speech because it will lead to "arguments"? Oh, God, I hope not, maybe we would have had a few arguments before we invaded a country called Iraq. Frankly, if you really meant what you said in the beginning, Zack, and freedom of speech was all-encompassing, we would use our intellect and ignore you. We wouldn't have to arrest you, tase you, or anything. You would make yourself look like a fool, make my point more interesting and enticing to those you thought you were stupid, and that would be that. No need for governmental control on debate. And Manix, I find it very interesting that you say that we can't be 100% free, as if you were just telling a little kid that's just how the world works, you get screwed and life just sucks. I am part of American society that believes we can be better than this, that this is not what the founders wanted when they created this great country. It isn't greed for freedom that I desire, but the elevation of the common man to say and think what you want. If you think that asking an immigrant if he's happy with our freedoms, of course he's going to say yes; he doesn't have any freedoms from where he came from, so anything looks better! It's man's fear of what his fellow man will say about him that curbs his tongue, not the police baton or the taser. You say that there never could be a dictatorship like Hitler? Unbelievable. Bush has done more to destroy the separation of powers than any other president, and you should know that. The republic of Rome, and the Weimar republic of Germany had checks and balances, and Caesar and Hitler, two humble men, took power and transformed them into empires. And if you think that a UNIVERSITY is not a "free speech zone", you need your head examined. Seriously. The reason why he was released after one day is because they didn't have anything to charge him with; he didn't do anything. Don't be daft, look around you. Life isn't about video games and the mall and your friends, that's not what America is about. It was created for the preservation of freedom in this world. "O ye that love mankind! Ye that dare oppose, not only the tyranny, but the tyrant, stand forth! Every spot of the old world is overrun with oppression. Freedom hath been hunted round the globe. Asia, and Africa, have long expelled her--Europe regards her like a stranger, and England hath given her warning to depart. O! receive the fugitive, and prepare in time an asylum for mankind." said the founder, Thomas Paine. Life can, and should be better. Any person that's not a timid sheeple would know that.


<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,297708,00.html">http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,297708,00.html</a><!-- m -->


"The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive."
Thomas Jefferson

"America goes not abroad in search of monsters to destroy."
John Quincy Adams

"America is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own."
John Quincy Adams

"In questions of power, then, let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief with the chains of the Constitution."
Thomas Jefferson

Mr. Manix Wrote:
Mr. Ireland, you must understand, a country can not be 100% free. If you are thinking that there are such things in this world, you are totally wrong. In fact, if we did have 100% freedom of speech, this country would be very very very chaotic. That means, I could easily go up to a certain race and say a racial comment and not get in trouble. That means at Mr. Bush’s next speech, a bunch of people against him could scream and not even allow the man to talk. Don’t underestimate the power of speech. The problem with a lot of Americans is that they do not understand the real power of freedom. People like you, Ireland, get candy, but ask for more. Don’t be greedy and remember that too much candy can give you a stomach ache. I’m sure you heard of the “shouting fire in a movie theater” one. Or slander or anything that could lead to violence. Maybe you haven’t experienced them or thought of what would happen if you had these rights. Maybe you would think differently if somebody puts news that you have cheated on your wife and puts it in the newspapers even though you didn’t. And just to let you know, there will never be a dictatorship like Hitler in America since first of all it is a federalist government and 2nd of all because of the separation of powers. Do me a favor and ask any immigrant whether he is happy with the freedoms America grants him. And yes, everybody does have the right to the “pursuit of happiness” but he does not have the right to find the “pursuit of happiness” by interfering in a inappropriate way with another man’s “pursuit of happiness”.

This kid at the university deserved to be tasered. Hell, in another country you could probably get killed for doing something like that. This kid was lucky. He said certain words that was “disturbing the peace” of the room. It’s not some stupid free speech zone. He asks couple of stupid questions while insulting Mr. Kerry, and then doesn’t let him answer. Police stay there for a while, still letting him go with his rambling stupid speech for more than 1 and a half minutes. Do you know how long it is to ask a 90 second question? Obviously it wasn’t a question and you aren’t going to let the person keep going on. Then lets, continue. They start to shoo the guy out because obviously it wasn’t relevant to anything there and he was taking too much time and disrupting the “peace”. So they start pushing him out of the place. There are 3 cops pushing him out. Then, he turns to the right, and attempts to jump over some stuff, trying to run back to the place. Obviously, that was suspicious behavior. So they tell him he’s under arrest. But he keeps struggling even on the floor. Resisting arrest is a felony everybody. The kid’s lucky he doesn’t get a bigger sentence than 1 day in jail. So, some people might say that it is using excessive force. Well, if a guy is struggling, you can’t really put handcuffs on him. So what do we do? Usually a police would beat the guy with the baton a few times, but thanks to modern technology, we have a less violent method: The taser. So they taser the guy. End of story. Lucky this kid wasn’t in another country. I mean, if you even look at cops over there the wrong way, they’ll just arrest you, beat the [censored] out of you, and put you in a jail. You won’t be able to go to a judge or anything. We’re lucky we’re in a country that is like this. If you think that this is too strict, too bad. No country in the world will allow little pansy boys to run around playing fun. The real world is a strict world. There are rules and regulations to follow, and if you don’t follow, you will have to pay the consequences.


Actually, you can go to a black guy and call him something racial. You won't be in trouble with the law, but the black guy's probably gonna shoot you. This country is not 100% free because people don't want it to be 100 % free, but they have the right to be.

Of course, a bunch of people could just scream at Mr. Bush, but here's a simple concept that you should understand.

Loudspeaker/9.7 Dolby Surround Sounds > bunch of idiots screaming their lungs out.

The idiots can scream all they want, but Bush's the one that's got a bigger voice with that sound system.
Words don't necessarily lead to violence, emotions do... if I slander someone, am I holding a gun to his head to tell him to beat my [censored] up? No, that someone would just get pissed off and trust his guts to beat my [censored] up (well... at least try to lol).

If you cheat on your wife, expect someone to know about it; it's your own fault that you cheat with your wife and don't be so sure about America never become some sort of dictatorship. You got to remember the elitist theory and I'm an immigrant; I'm here to weed out the inferior population... almost like natural selection, except skills/knowledge/wisdom are usually attained.

The kid shouldn't be tasered because this is America; this is not any other country. If the "Land of the Free" doesn't uphold the kid's rights, then where would people have freedom? That university was supposed to be a place of learning and free opinions, if you can't express your ideas in a university, then what is America? A land of fat lazy guts?

I don't think the kid wanted to ask a question or anything, but he acted as though he wanted to ask a question but he stated his opinion instead. Those questions he asked were rhetorical questions to improve his point of opinion and the kid didn't really resisted arrest when the cops pushed him out; the cops didn't announce that he was under arrest and how was it "suspicious behavior"? Alsothe kid was dumb too... he could have scored some major sympathy points if he just went quietly, and would harm John Kerry's rep way more. I could've done better than that [censored]...

Mr.Zack Wrote:
You're all a bunch of stupid [censored] that have no idea what you are talking about. A bunch of staggering, idiotic retards that have no sense of debate. I'm better, smarter, and tougher than everyone in this whole damn conversation. Go [censored] yourselves.






Shocked and a bit pissed? That's my freedom of speech.

Want to ban me? Yell back at me? Perhaps even, if you had it and this was in person, tase me? Go ahead, I deserved it after all I said. Now suppose you're John Kerry, this is your campaign, you want people to believe in you. Now I'm the [censored] that comes up and starts spreading rumors about you being in a shady organization like Skull & Bones. You aren't exactly going to invite me to have some coffee, now are ya?

You don't understand the concept of speech, for one. More particularly, Ireland88. If everyone was allowed to say whatever they wanted to say, this would lead to numerous arguments and eventually fights. You legalize everyone to say, "YOU DUMB HONKEY [censored]!" Or some other obscenities, you're going to have at least 1,000 hate crimes an hour. Yeah, he has the right to stand up and say his two cents, but not in the way that he did it. He purposely wanted to start a fight, purposely wanted his fifteen minutes of fame and even egged the police on. Like someone else stated in this topic, he got tased because he was resisting arrest.

This isn't an attack on the freedom of speech, and it isn't signs of some oppressive government. You know what this is? Another cop doing his job, and another dumb fuckin' college kid who thinks he some badass. He's an amateur journalist, what do you expect?







By utilizing the word [censored] multiple times, you have just addressed yourself as an emotional, non-intelligent stupid hick.

Everyone HAVE the right to do whatever they want, but I'm not sure that everyone wants to slander OR do hate crimes
everyone is legalized to say "YOU DUMB HONKEY [censored]!" If they want to but unfortunately, the speaker of such words will end up shanked, shot up, "hit", and subjected to various "accidents"

the kid wasn't resisting arrest when the cops first pushed him, because the cops never told him he was being arrested yet. that act would be defined as "cruel and unusual punishment" because the cops didn't even had "suspicion"

Also I have to concur that the kid inevitably is a dumbass.

Yes, just as we don't need the government to tell us what to buy and sell, we don't need them to tell us what to say. The "consumer" of the conversation ignores you, just as the consumer of goods boycott goods they don't need or like.

AkSu Wrote:
By utilizing the word [censored] multiple times, you have just addressed yourself as an emotional, non-intelligent stupid hick.


As is my right to be. "[censored]."

Exactly! Freedom is [censored] amazing.
In all honesty, the guy was acting erratically. He was ranting, and getting very active. I think that it was a smart idea to remove him from the area and try to calm the situation.

But the cops really fucked up. I mean, [censored] tazers? Come on. That is bullshit. He's a college kid wearing shorts and I think flip flops. Seriously. What the [censored]? Just drag him out of there. You don't need to shock someone. And everyone else just sat there and watched. When did apathy become so hip?
Pages: 1 2 3 4
Reference URL's